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Solemn
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Re: Page 88

Post by Solemn »

yasotay wrote:Oh dear. Maybe the Babes in blue are not as goodie-two-shoes as we are led to believe.
Did I miss something? I don't recall hearing even one good thing about the Loroi. The first word we ever got about the Loroi, from refugees fleeing from the Umiak, is that the Loroi are even worse than the Umiak, and have a habit of total genocide. So the Loroi were established as, if not evil, at least not overly concerned with being good, right from the start.

When we first see the Loroi, they'd rescued our protagonist from certain death and started asking about his health and comfort, sure. But immediately after we learn that they're Loroi, those talks take a sinister turn.

Then there's the information extraction scene itself, which, despite not being deliberately sexualized in any way, did sorta involve an immobilized naked victim's person and sense of wellbeing getting thoroughly violated through a series of not-quite-sensual physical contacts with malice aforethought in a manner that demonstrates and reinforces the attacker's power and the victim's helplessness.
Image
It's sensible in its proper context. The Loroi legitimately need information that they had just cause to suspect him of withholding and had no other timely and certain method of gaining said information. But the image and impression are still those of a powerful personal violation. Enough so that, were Alex a female character and the Loroi a bunch of male aliens, then that scene alone might've established the Loroi as the story's villains more or less regardless of who destroyed the Bellarmine. I know that being touched and mind-read is nothing compared with what innocent bystanders in, say, the 30 Years' War could expect from any of the combatants, but for the main characters of a relatively clean and family friendly cartoon (which is how I see Outsider), I think it's still well within villain territory.

So, the Loroi had crossed a boundary that most PG-13 villains don't cross (largely because most villains are not capable of forcible mind-reading, but still), before 30 pages had passed. For an encore, they add a little physical abuse. Beryl subsequently apologizes... for perhaps having said something that might have offended him. So my human impression is that even nice, cute Beryl might not quite get that hurting people is wrong, and Tempo's apology for whatever might have happened in her absence feels perfunctory at best, and that smile in the last panel really isn't selling it. Again, it all makes sense and works for the characters, for instance Beryl was plainly trying to protect both parties involved from one another and defuse the situation, but since it's so hard not to think of the Loroi as humans and judge them by my own norms it still creates an impression of a basic lack of empathy. And that elevator revealed that the Loroi have some frankly terrifying capabilities, married to their apparent lack of respect for the value of life. As audience members we all know that only a few Loroi have any telekinetic ability at all and only very few of those have it to any appreciable extent, but as far as Alex knows, even the nice girl who brought him his new shoes could smash him to paste by thinking hard at him. The fact that we as the audience know better than this is balanced by the fact that we as the audience know that the one person onboard who appears to have the authority and will to offer him any protection is the one person onboard whose purpose is manipulation and deception. Then there's the Loroi tendency to decorate with images of skulls, and how so many of the Loroi have looked pretty much openly hostile, and how even their closest trusted allies seem to regard the Loroi pretty negatively. The Loroi are, all in all, probably the most terrifying captors Alex could have, in-universe. At least with the Umiak he wouldn't be able to see how pissed they are at him. Stillstorm in particular seems dead-set on maintaining the ancient human warrior-culture custom of turning friends into neutrals and neutrals into enemies.

I realize there are a bunch of reasons why the Loroi might not be such bad people. In the context of real human behavior towards suspicious parties during real human wars, Strike Group 51's treatment of Alex is practically saintly. The situation Strike Group 51 (and the Loroi Union in general) is in is pretty extreme. Beryl is the Loroi we've had the most contact with, and she's adorable and kind as can be, if... awkward. Tempo seems to have done all that she possibly could to protect Alex and help him out, regardless of her occasional adoption of aggressive tones and postures for negotiation purposes. Even Fireblade looked sympathetic to Alex for one whole panel, though that's really not enough (yet) to make up for her apparent satisfaction after she smacked him around to show him who's boss (to appearances, Loroi attitudes towards males are exactly like those of Victorian men towards women, rather than like idealized Victorian attitudes). But these are comparatively small things, downright subtle when put beside all their outright hostile acts and aesthetics of villainy (wherever the Tempest doesn't bristle with guns, it menaces with spikes. Fact: bad guys get better ships.). The Loroi have had too many small humanizing moments to be total space monsters, but, so far, they've just been small and momentary, not enough to get them out of the antagonist role. Not yet.

So all that Kikitik-27 really had to do to not seem any worse than the Loroi at this point was show up without eating any babies. Even if he'd destroyed the Bellarmine, that could've been explained as a totally pragmatic concern regarding the Bell's friendship message transmission potentially compromising their operation, which could variously be played as cold villainy or cold necessity (just as the telepathic interrogation scene could have been played a lot harsher or a lot more moderately than it was). And he could have tried to bring his overwhelming force to bear to destroy Stillstorm's fleet the moment the opportunity was presented. In such cases his acts would be weighed by the audience against the Loroi having perpetrated equally cold acts against Alex personally in the name of their mission, and most of the time personal antagonism is the more compelling of the two styles of evil.

But Kitkat-27 didn't merely show up, he isn't just calculatedly attacking, and at the moment we haven't much proof that he destroyed the Bellarmine.
(Beryl's statement that the enemy only breathes to deceive sounds naive; it's probably true from her point of view, but consider what that point of view would have to be. Judging by the Loroi reaction, Umiak commanders have never previously contacted the Loroi in the field, and Umiak nonmilitary personnel aren't really going to be walking around talking to folks in Loroi space. Beryl wasn't even born when the war started, so pre-war contact is out. Just about the only type of Umiak communication I think Beryl could be familiar with is wartime propaganda, and of course that's going to be nothing but deceit).

Instead, Krikkit-27 opened communications with his hated enemy, carefully explained that further bloodshed here would be a tragedy for both parties, and offered terms that could easily be this war's equivalent to Sherman's terms to Johnston--terms so generous that Congress attacked Sherman for being too soft on the South, terms so generous that Johnston later died to properly honor Sherman, or so the legend goes--in language that suggests a genuine respect for his enemy's lives and accomplishments, and a genuine sense of tragedy at the pointlessness of death beyond the requirements of duty. So Kittykat-27, unlike every Loroi we've met, has shown outward signs that he thinks it is wrong to hurt other people unless you absolutely have to. If we can take Tictac-27's words at face value, then, having done his duty, he is willing to extend what mercy he can to his enemies; he seems the white knight of the story so far, throwing into contrast the casual brutality demonstrated by the Loroi warriors. So when it turns out he's being underhanded, it'll hit twice as hard, whereas just straight-up antagonism would merely put him on even footing with the Loroi.

And his strong words, like "murderous raiders," and "responsible for countless murders?" Looking over the timeline, yeah, it could easily be true. The Loroi were conducting extensive raids into Umiak-held and Umiak-aligned civilian areas, and did start the war's anti-neutrality policy and commit countless murders over its execution, and for all we know the Storm Witch could have been at the forefront of every major Loroi-conducted anti-civilian act. We don't know. Only the Loroi and the Umiak would know.

I think that part of the story is going to be Alex slowly, slowly learning to overcome the extremely negative first impression the Loroi make. It's more interesting to watch a relationship change and develop than to have it clearly established from the first y'know? It's obvious that the Loroi are going to take a very long time to learn to trust Alex, and I think it should take Alex at least as long to come to the point of trusting them, since, well, they come off as, if not monsters, at least a bunch of space jerks.

Maybe what humanity has to offer them is some good PR lessons.

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Grayhome
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Re: Page 88

Post by Grayhome »

*claps enthusiastically* THANK you!

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Ktrain
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Re: Page 88

Post by Ktrain »

I think Arioch specifically put Beryl into this story to distract/balance the negative actions taken by the Loroi and to get the readers to sympathize with the space elves (to what end I can only guess ;) ). This is a morally ambiguous war but #27's comments makes me feel that only one side feels that this is a war of extermination, while the other would be content with disarming the threat. I doubt the Umiak would drive the Loroi/their allies/coerced allies/slaves to extinction and I doubt they would occupy major Loroi worlds; instead I see the Bugmen isolating their enemies and preventing them from assembling another fleet.

The Loroi are brutal occupiers, but little is known on how they treat or relate to their allies. They have a history of disproportionate responses.
e.g.: "Enok incident: a Loroi squadron is destroyed on the far side of former Mannadi space. Suspecting Mannadi complicity, the Loroi conduct extermination raids against major Mannadi population centers in conquered territories."
Genocide of a disarmed enemy at the mere suspicion (not evidence) of involvement.

Alex must be pragmatic, though, since his objective is to secure humanity's survival not judge the good guys from the bad guys. We know quite a bit about Loroi occupied races, but all we really know about the peoples occupied by the Umiak are the ones who have suffered at the hands of the Loroi.
Alex must ask himself this,
1) Who will most likely win this war?
2) Which belligerent would make a better occupier?
3) Which belligerent would grant humanity the most autonomy?
4) Which belligerent would humanity the greatest access to technology and position humanity in a greater strategic position in the future?
5) Who is sexier and more anthropomorphic

I see more similarities in human and Umiak cultures than between mankind and the Loroi. The Loroi seem culturally backwards and overly dependent on their biology for their dominance and strategic position in the galaxy. They do not seem to value creativity, production, curiosity, or intellectualism very much, and this can be observed in their caste structures. "The support castes such as the Listel or Doranzer are generally entirely outside of the regular chain of command, and generally can rise only into the upper echelons of their own internal caste hierarchies." i.e.: Positions of power and authority for "thinkers" and "doctors" are relatively limited in Loroi society. Furthermore, since civilians are seen as second class citizens (this term might give the wrong impression) in relation to the military castes, excellence in a civilian activity is not as "honorable" as being a proficient destroyer. The functional role of the Loroi caste system in interstellar politics is showing its age; this traditional/antiquated system has undermined the self sufficiency of the Loroi and made them dependent on third parties.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

yasotay
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Re: Page 88

Post by yasotay »

A most cogent argument Solemn. I enjoy Arioch's work for the very reason that it demonstrates to his audience that one must look beyond the surface (sexy blue space elves; not an ugly one in the lot) to see real truths (even if they come from a clicky talking grasshopper).

Perhaps the Loroi have, after all the generations of war, become the very thing they originally thought to stop.

I look forward to seeing how the untrustworthy Kikitik-27 part in this drama plays out.

Nice piece of classical western tragedy in the offing here. Do I here Orff playing in the background?

fredgiblet
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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

@Solemn

While I disagree with some points (not enough time before work to go over them, perhaps tomorrow) I do agree with your overall assessment, the Loroi are not nice people. It's kind of amusing actually, I was on an Outsider thread on /tg/ and someone dismissively said "I know what the 'twist' is going to be, it's going to turn out that the Loroi are actually assholes and not the good guys" to which I had to explain that Arioch has been pretty clear from the beginning, the Loroi are not "good guys", they are the more protagonistic race of the story (behind humans of course), but they are most certainly not good.

I think the problem is two-fold, we are used to the "good guys" being the side that we watch and interact with the most and, let's face it, we like to think that the sexy people are the good guys too. Unfortunately neither side of this story qualifies as "good" by any reasonable stretch.
yasotay wrote:Perhaps the Loroi have, after all the generations of war, become the very thing they originally thought to stop.
I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. This wasn't a crusade of righteousness on the part of the Loroi, it was a war of conquest against a perceived (rightly) threat, the only thing they were trying to stop was them losing their hegemony.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 88

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

At the moment, the only side that can really qualify as "good guys," in this story is humanity. We've seen now that individuals both Loroi and Umiak can be friendly, pleasant and/or reasonable. However, I doubt that any species that possesses self awareness is going to be so one dimensional as to satisfy the human tendency to assume that individuals in "the other group," are all alike.

As for Alex's decisions, his primary mission is to make contact and bring a representative back. Failing that, the long term goal of humanity in sending out this mission is to ally with the side that is most likely to prevent humanity from being exterminated.

Who is most likely to win this war? Alex has good reason to suspect that the Loroi might win due to Stillstorm's demonstrated prowess, however he has good reason to suspect the Umiak will win due to their new found far-sense blocking technology and their massive numerical superiority.

Who would make the better occupier? Judging from what we know from the insider ((information that Alex doesn't know yet)) it seems very clear that, as long as their client states don't step out of line, the Loroi treat them much nicer than the Umiak do. The Barsam, Pipolsid, and the Neridi seem to be doing quite well as members of the Loroi union. The Umiak, by comparison seem to demand a great deal out of their clients and have no qualms about polluting or otherwise ruining inhabited worlds to further their war machine.

I don't think the question of who would give humanity technology or position is as pertinent as one as-of-yet unasked question:

Who is more likely to commit genocide against humanity should their chosen ally lose? I think, given what we know about the two races, the Umiak are less likely to commit genocide against humanity if allied with a losing Loroi Union. Judging by how they dealt with the Orgus, it seems like they might be more inclined to just roll over terran space like a freight train and force a surrender. Probably a surrender with unfavorable terms, yes, but not as likely to be full out genocide.

Taking the above into account: unless it seems totally obvious that the Loroi are on the verge of collapse, in a risk/reward analysis, allying with the Loroi is the safer of the two bets. Even if it is the eviler of the two.

I see shades of different human philosophies in both the Umiak and the Loroi, which is understandable given that it is a story written by a human. :P The Loroi are kind of like an older version of western civilization, still trying to climb its way out of a dark age, but not having much success while in a state of total war.

dfacto
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Re: Page 88

Post by dfacto »

Fact: bad guys get better ships.
Missed a spot

Also yes, I agree with your analysis. At this case it looks like a choice between crazy nazi space elves and probably crazy communist space roaches. A neutral diplomat's nightmare.

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Trantor
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Re: Page 88

Post by Trantor »

dfacto wrote:Also yes, I agree with your analysis. At this case it looks like a choice between crazy nazi space elves and probably crazy communist space roaches. A neutral diplomat's nightmare.
I´d still prefer the space-elves.
No, not what you think. :P
But i´m sure in case of emergency they´re easier to overthrow in the future, if we´re able to gain some autonoumos status from the start on.
sapere aude.

Voitan
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Re: Page 88

Post by Voitan »

Should Humanity join the Loroi, it's best attribute to contribute above all is perhaps a magnanimous hand to its defeated enemies, and hopefully by example, temper the Loroi's uneven handedness, and its tendecy towards petty revenge, and show that turning an enemy to, if not a friend, a forging of mutual respect that better insures a peace to follow.

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Re: Page 88

Post by discord »

you are missing a few vital points in this.

#1 how long will it take Alex to figure out that the 'far-sensing device' is psionic in nature?

#2 figure out that while the umiak strike group may be 'fuzzy' humans are effectively invisible?

#3 that umiak seem to be at this time more likely to win.

problem is, if humans ally with the umiak the loroi could not ALLOW Alex to return to his people with that information, ergo probably kill him, and go on a genocidal rampage to remove the threat, but throwing in with the loroi is at this point not a winning choice either....since the loroi seem to be losing...and he is on a loroi ship....<edit> and umiak are also known for genocide tactics against enemies...so going that way humans are likely to be knocked back to the stone age, if not wiped out entirely....</edit>

go right, Alex and humanity probably dies, go left, Alex and humanity probably dies, that is known as a 'bad situation'.

Nathan_
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Re: Page 88

Post by Nathan_ »

The loroi seem to have a superior tech base, just not the industrial capacity to make the most of it, and several terran worlds cranking out basic supplies would free up loroi manufacturing centers to produce more of the more important stuff. More importantly it keeps the new group, invisible to far-sense even when standing next to the device, out of the hands of the Umiak(Tempo I think admitted this to Alex so he knows).

Attempting genocide really isn't in the cards for the loroi. If one refugee ship gets out the whole exercise was pointless.

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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

discord wrote:#1 how long will it take Alex to figure out that the 'far-sensing device' is psionic in nature?
It's a reasonable leap from what he's already seen, I'd say a couple hours, tops. Might be longer before it's confirmed but if he hasn't already guessed that he will soon.
#2 figure out that while the umiak strike group may be 'fuzzy' humans are effectively invisible?
-10 minutes or so. Since he's already been explicitly told this.
#3 that umiak seem to be at this time more likely to win.
Debatable, if you take the Umiak commanders statements at face value it looks bad for the Loroi. However, I doubt the commander has information about what's actually happening, rather it has information about what is planned. Assuming it's telling the truth, which isn't the best assumption, it's probably still far less accurate then it would like to believe.

TrashMan
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Re: Page 88

Post by TrashMan »

Solemn wrote: *SNIP*
Interesting and well put.
Alas, 99% of the readers will se hot space elves on one side and ugly bugs on the other and it's clear who the evil guys will be in their mind.
It seems to me that Arioch has spent more time and attention on Loroi, so I find it unlikely that they are the bad guys.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 88

Post by Mjolnir »

Nathan_ wrote:The loroi seem to have a superior tech base, just not the industrial capacity to make the most of it, and several terran worlds cranking out basic supplies would free up loroi manufacturing centers to produce more of the more important stuff. More importantly it keeps the new group, invisible to far-sense even when standing next to the device, out of the hands of the Umiak(Tempo I think admitted this to Alex so he knows).
How much will us replacing part of their agricultural and low-tech goods production really help them increase their production of high-tech starships and defensive facilities? They wouldn't be able to reuse much more than the buildings, and I doubt a shortage of buildings is the problem. It seems likely the bottleneck is in availability of materials to feed into the factories, not space to build factories in.

This is something humans might actually be able to help out with more directly, though. It appears the Loroi have never really had a war that required massive expansion of industrial base and have historically had rather low planetary populations, and have been as conservative about adopting new things as has been implied. They may be relying on relatively small, shallow mines and other relatively low-volume sources of raw materials to supply their industry, never having developed the massive scale deep mining techniques needed to push productivity up. A deposit they consider inaccessible might be one we'd consider quite profitable, or they may have never even developed the technology for prospecting any but the most easily accessible deposits. Human experts could help prospect for good deep mining sites and advise on the techniques and equipment needed, allowing them to greatly increase the amount of materials available for their manufacturing operations. This does assume that the other members of the Loroi Union have been similarly slow to expand industrially, however.

Nathan_
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Re: Page 88

Post by Nathan_ »

TrashMan wrote:
Solemn wrote: *SNIP*
Interesting and well put.
Alas, 99% of the readers will se hot space elves on one side and ugly bugs on the other and it's clear who the evil guys will be in their mind.
It seems to me that Arioch has spent more time and attention on Loroi, so I find it unlikely that they are the bad guys.

I'm still holding out hope that the bugs are gravely voiced patriarchal bugs for once.
How much will us replacing part of their agricultural and low-tech goods production really help them increase their production of high-tech starships and defensive facilities? They wouldn't be able to reuse much more than the buildings, and I doubt a shortage of buildings is the problem. It seems likely the bottleneck is in availability of materials to feed into the factories, not space to build factories in.
Factories, workers, raw materials and so on. Manufacturing demand is elastic(agriculture by contrast is not and wouldn't likely get replaced), and as much as we can produce will find a use somehow, somewhere, in a fully geared up war economy. To use the WW2 example, America's economy did not plateau during the war, production kept rising despite just how much we were producing and throwing at everything.

I very much doubt that we have much tech to offer them at the moment however, though filling up Earth to 25 billion is incredible from where I stand.

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 88

Post by GeoModder »

Nathan_ wrote:..., though filling up Earth to 25 billion is incredible from where I stand.
It impossible from where I stand. ;)
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Re: Page 88

Post by Karst45 »

*cast Shatter Wall of text level 1*

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Re: Page 88

Post by Tash »

Yang Wen-li wrote:Few wars are fought between good and evil; most are fought between one good and another good.
I think the problem here is the fundamental assumption that there must be a good guy and a bad guy for a story to work; one shining, if potentially flawed, hero and one evil S.O.B. who murders whole populations for expediency, eats babies, and cackles that no one can save the heroine now.

Speaking as someone who tries to break that hold on fiction in his own writings, I really like what Arioch has done with this.
Umiak brutally conquer and expand, and make terrible demands on the manpower and resources of their vassals.
They are coldly pragmatic, to the point where exterminating whole populations was not considered at all morally undesirable; Loroi are difficult to subjugate, so why spend resources trying when the war is still on?

On the other hand, Loroi leave no room for neutrality and utterly exterminate and smash peripheral powers to deny the enemy bases and resources with which to hit their own territory. They come off as having an air of superiority- they are elves, after all- and xenophobia that some Terran nations would have trouble matching.

It's impossible to pronounce one side good and one side evil; they've both done horrible things as far as most of mankind is concerned.
The difference here, and why I prefer the Loroi- well, that and uh....other reasons we won't disclose here- is the fact that the qualities they display are fundamentally human.

They don't just look like us; in some ways, they are us, down to the xenophobia and the willingness to destroy and burn down populations for victory. The concept of no-man's land was not invented with Semoset.

Of course, I'm probably the only one here who would push the 'bomb planet' button in the same position as the Loroi/Umiak, so perhaps my perspective is different; I don't see much in the way of evil, just extreme actions.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 88

Post by Mjolnir »

Nathan_ wrote:Factories, workers, raw materials and so on. Manufacturing demand is elastic(agriculture by contrast is not and wouldn't likely get replaced), and as much as we can produce will find a use somehow, somewhere, in a fully geared up war economy. To use the WW2 example, America's economy did not plateau during the war, production kept rising despite just how much we were producing and throwing at everything.
That means we can pour cheap goods labeled in unintentionally but often hilariously bad Tradeglish into the Loroi Union and find a market. That's good for us, but how will that free up Loroi manufacturing for the war? We're adding production of miscellaneous low-tech goods, what we're replacing is cottage industries and stuff like clothing factories employing unskilled workers. They're generally not going to go on to work in high-tech automation-heavy starship component factories, and probably weren't competing with them for supplies in the first place. The factories we're taking over the production from aren't going to switch over to producing items that are holding up starship production.

The Loroi Union is apparently in a position where they need to do what we did in WWII, but are less well prepared to do so and are experiencing problems expanding production fast enough. Given their reproductive capabilities, their problem is almost certainly not lack of manpower, but is rather lack of raw materials, and even if we can completely replace Loroi manufacturing of a few items, I just don't see Terran goods as being made of the right things to save the Loroi enough raw materials to construct more ships.

Nathan_ wrote:I very much doubt that we have much tech to offer them at the moment however, though filling up Earth to 25 billion is incredible from where I stand.
I agree that we don't have any high tech to offer them, what I was suggesting is essentially that we might have some low tech that they never needed to develop. As a specific example, personnel experienced in handling the logistics and practical issues of mining on a scale the Loroi never needed to attempt before recently.

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Ktrain
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Re: Page 88

Post by Ktrain »

Mjolnir wrote: That means we can pour cheap goods labeled in unintentionally but often hilariously bad Tradeglish into the Loroi Union and find a market.
SUPER PHALLIC FOOT MITTENS (Tube socks)

But on a more serious note, Loroi do not have an open and fluid society so resource most likely cannot be reallocated from one sector to another easily. My greatest qualm with their economy is that one half of the potential workforce is employed in a military role, not in a productive role. i.e.: "The warrior class, accounting for roughly half of the population, fill nearly all military and governmental functions, and are themselves subdivided into numerous specialized castes that are similar (in division of duty) to our armed services.
It may very well be the case that output per human is greater than output per Loroi just based off of how each economy is organized. It may very well be their culture and values which are losing the war for them more than anything else.

Also Mjolnir, I don't fully understand your tech distinction; if one group does not possess or has not developed an innovation, no matter how simple or novel it is, and then learns to employ it, is it still not a technological advancement? Could you clarify what you mean by high and low tech?
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

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