dfacto, that is unrealistic. If the Loroi want us to help them, some tech assistance will have to be offered. Right now, humanity has little to offer aside from bodies and an undamaged and unexploited tech base that can be expanded upon. With billions of people on our worlds, we have the advantage of numbers were we are, but our tech is pathetic. They have to help us upgrade in order for us to be of any use within 5 years.
What they can do is send several Loroi/Historian and Barsom teams, under Lorio control of course, a few mining/suplpy ships to help us upgrade our tech, build bases that can be used in the war effort and to give the Lorioi an unbiased view of humanity's possible contribution to the war effort.
LegioCI, that's possible for throw away warships. They would not be very good in a fight since they aren't build from the keel out for it. The stresses of combat a warship faces are a lot different than what a civilian ship faces.
Upgraded engines is a must. Those can be used for both warships and missles/torpedos. Better armor, weapons and sensors are a very close second behind those. I agree the Loroi would not give us the lartest tech they have, but humanity's inventiveness is something they have yet to see and we might find new applications for Loroi and Historian tech they never thought if. Hell, we might be able to improve on it because we thought of something they -knew- wasn't possible.
Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Moderator: Outsider Moderators
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
I don't think the Loroi will want to help us very much at all because they'll see 6 worlds, of which only 2 are worth anything, very low tech, and insufficient industrial capacity. Most likely they will provide some basic drive tech improvements and then set humanity to mining for war materials. They have no reason to treat us as a serious potential ally because we're just backwood hicks to them.Zakharra wrote:dfacto, that is unrealistic. If the Loroi want us to help them, some tech assistance will have to be offered. Right now, humanity has little to offer aside from bodies and an undamaged and unexploited tech base that can be expanded upon. With billions of people on our worlds, we have the advantage of numbers were we are, but our tech is pathetic. They have to help us upgrade in order for us to be of any use within 5 years.
But humans being humans, we'll need to arm ourselves as best we can, and salvaging Umiak scrap seems like a pretty easy way to get a boost to me.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Well, the Loroi might see humanity as a valuable staging area. They might give mankind the tech necessary to create an infrastructure to support their war effort (meaning fuel conversion plants, ship yards, ect). Furthermore, third parties within the Union might see mankind as a potential balance against Loroi if admitted into the union and thus provide some technical assistance. Though I doubt man has much military significance in this story (F'IN SPACE MARINES, DUKE NUKEM, AND SEAN CONNERY exempted); I bet man will provide some niche role in the war effort.
Since theoretical mankind is a species that values innovation, we might make great researchers. Since Loroi culture values military prowess over economic productivity or inventiveness (Listel and Doranzer classes are almost never promoted to command ranks and they are the nerdy technical classes), they might have much to learn from how human society organizes itself and our natural inquisitiveness (is that a landmine or a rock?).
I can discuss the trade offs between free markets and command economies if anyone wishes to extrapolate about theoretical alien economies.
Furthermore, humanity might have certain chemical compound derived from our biosphere that the Loroi have never encountered so acting like we are useless is slightly arrogant.
P.S.: Being able to close the weapons range gap is most important for man with his current resources; STEALTH IS KEY.
Since theoretical mankind is a species that values innovation, we might make great researchers. Since Loroi culture values military prowess over economic productivity or inventiveness (Listel and Doranzer classes are almost never promoted to command ranks and they are the nerdy technical classes), they might have much to learn from how human society organizes itself and our natural inquisitiveness (is that a landmine or a rock?).
I can discuss the trade offs between free markets and command economies if anyone wishes to extrapolate about theoretical alien economies.
Furthermore, humanity might have certain chemical compound derived from our biosphere that the Loroi have never encountered so acting like we are useless is slightly arrogant.
P.S.: Being able to close the weapons range gap is most important for man with his current resources; STEALTH IS KEY.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Some bits of drive or weapons tech wouldn't help much, but some slightly-obsolete manufacturing and fuel processing gear could set us up to start producing materials to resupply Loroi ships operating out in that region of space. A full blown shipyard might be too much of an investment in a relatively exposed location, but a forward base from which to patch up damaged ships for the trip back home would also be useful.
As for stealth:
2.7K background and a pristine vacuum...at least, when you're not in the middle of a proplyd. Ship drives putting out vast amounts of power, equipment inside and sunlight outside constantly heating the ship even when its propulsion systems are completely offline...you have to assume you're visible across the system. There's just no way a human spacecraft is going to sneak through Umiak sensors to within less-than-point-blank range so they can hit their target with mass drivers.
Further reading: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacewardetect.php
As for stealth:
2.7K background and a pristine vacuum...at least, when you're not in the middle of a proplyd. Ship drives putting out vast amounts of power, equipment inside and sunlight outside constantly heating the ship even when its propulsion systems are completely offline...you have to assume you're visible across the system. There's just no way a human spacecraft is going to sneak through Umiak sensors to within less-than-point-blank range so they can hit their target with mass drivers.
Further reading: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacewardetect.php
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
Oh god, haven't read RHO in way too long.
But yeah, "Ain't no stealth in space." That's why I didn't even bring it up and instead went for putting so much mass between the enemy and the squishy bits that the ship will be able to just muscle itself into weapon range. (An interesting counterpoint to the Loroi's mindset of range and maneuver.) Of course, the Gen-I ships being essentially re-purposed container-ships, they're not going to be terribly good. (Think about the very first aircraft carriers, which were essentially cancelled battleships with big wooden decks on them.) However they'll be usable and have a decent chance to do some damage (and, perhaps more importantly to the Loroi, soak up some damage) in a space battle.
When we start building the Gen-II dreadnaughts off purpose-built hulls and designs, that will be when we see significant gains in humanity's military power.
But yeah, "Ain't no stealth in space." That's why I didn't even bring it up and instead went for putting so much mass between the enemy and the squishy bits that the ship will be able to just muscle itself into weapon range. (An interesting counterpoint to the Loroi's mindset of range and maneuver.) Of course, the Gen-I ships being essentially re-purposed container-ships, they're not going to be terribly good. (Think about the very first aircraft carriers, which were essentially cancelled battleships with big wooden decks on them.) However they'll be usable and have a decent chance to do some damage (and, perhaps more importantly to the Loroi, soak up some damage) in a space battle.
When we start building the Gen-II dreadnaughts off purpose-built hulls and designs, that will be when we see significant gains in humanity's military power.
"But notice how the Human thinks. 'Interesting... how can I use this as a weapon?'" - Arioch
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Thanks for the link Mjolnir, that was a good read. Basically you would need to rearrange the nature of space to make stealth work (so no no-ships 
).
Also about those rock ships LegioCI described, wouldn't it take a lot of energy to both get moving and stop? Also, accelerating Volkswagen Beatles (should be 94 Ford Tauruses in my opinion) to one fourth the speed of light reminds me something I read in the Halo manual back in 2002.... Hell, if you accelerate even something small to one quarter the speed of light when it impacts an object it will either drill right through it (I did a math problem with the Titanic, a .25c missile and the iceberg and that was the result) , or, if the object is dense enough, then a bunch of force will transfer from the projectile into the unlucky object.
If humanity were able to achieve such a powerful railgun, that might be enough to impress the Loroi (based of the damage chart here http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... &start=150). Accelerating VW Beatles to one quarter the speed of light is no easy task. Though, I think mankind's contribution to the war effort may come from the way we organize our society's resources; the Loroi economy seems to be a command and control economy. Furthermore, Loroi "virtues" (or eristues) might not value industriousness, efficiency, and material production like some dominant human cultures (e.i.: The Anglo-Saxon virtues; Max Weber's protestant work ethic, etc), so we might have some innovations that they have not thought of employing. Then again Loroi might be so confident of their superiority that they might dismiss our ideas and achievements (like the way Western colonizers looked down upon the achievements of many indigenous societies, sometimes to their peril).
Human societies have traditionally devoted a very small portion of society's resources towards the military, there are short spikes during conflicts, but in peacetime the amount of GDP spent on the military is usually less than 10%. I have read that the 10% of GDP level is a threshold where the societal impact of military spending becomes more acute and starts to adversely effect the civilian sector. The highest recorded level of GDP devoted to a war effort I have ever heard was the USSR during WWII. For a few months the country dedicated a little over half of its GDP to the production of war materials and maintaining the war effort. What enabled the Russians to do this was American logistical support and supply.
Loroi society, in contrast, has around half its potential workforce employed in the military. This must severely limit their potential economic output and growth. (Remember, when the USSR collapsed in 91 30% of its GDP went towards the military.) It seems that the Loroi outsource much of their economy to third parties, but just looking at the numbers implies that their society may be very economically inefficient.
Note:
Maybe humanity would be better off taking those colony ships and trying to establish a human presence farther away from the belligerents?
). Also about those rock ships LegioCI described, wouldn't it take a lot of energy to both get moving and stop? Also, accelerating Volkswagen Beatles (should be 94 Ford Tauruses in my opinion) to one fourth the speed of light reminds me something I read in the Halo manual back in 2002.... Hell, if you accelerate even something small to one quarter the speed of light when it impacts an object it will either drill right through it (I did a math problem with the Titanic, a .25c missile and the iceberg and that was the result) , or, if the object is dense enough, then a bunch of force will transfer from the projectile into the unlucky object.
If humanity were able to achieve such a powerful railgun, that might be enough to impress the Loroi (based of the damage chart here http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... &start=150). Accelerating VW Beatles to one quarter the speed of light is no easy task. Though, I think mankind's contribution to the war effort may come from the way we organize our society's resources; the Loroi economy seems to be a command and control economy. Furthermore, Loroi "virtues" (or eristues) might not value industriousness, efficiency, and material production like some dominant human cultures (e.i.: The Anglo-Saxon virtues; Max Weber's protestant work ethic, etc), so we might have some innovations that they have not thought of employing. Then again Loroi might be so confident of their superiority that they might dismiss our ideas and achievements (like the way Western colonizers looked down upon the achievements of many indigenous societies, sometimes to their peril).
Human societies have traditionally devoted a very small portion of society's resources towards the military, there are short spikes during conflicts, but in peacetime the amount of GDP spent on the military is usually less than 10%. I have read that the 10% of GDP level is a threshold where the societal impact of military spending becomes more acute and starts to adversely effect the civilian sector. The highest recorded level of GDP devoted to a war effort I have ever heard was the USSR during WWII. For a few months the country dedicated a little over half of its GDP to the production of war materials and maintaining the war effort. What enabled the Russians to do this was American logistical support and supply.
Loroi society, in contrast, has around half its potential workforce employed in the military. This must severely limit their potential economic output and growth. (Remember, when the USSR collapsed in 91 30% of its GDP went towards the military.) It seems that the Loroi outsource much of their economy to third parties, but just looking at the numbers implies that their society may be very economically inefficient.
Note:
Maybe humanity would be better off taking those colony ships and trying to establish a human presence farther away from the belligerents?
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Or restrict our operations to the Naam system, where there's a thick, hot proplyd to hide in. The Umiak already discovered that trick, though.Ktrain wrote:Thanks for the link Mjolnir, that was a good read. Basically you would need to rearrange the nature of space to make stealth work (so no no-ships :P).
I haven't been keeping up with this thread. A ship with equally powerful engines and packed full of rock as armor/shielding would be uselessly slow. Even if the protection allowed it to survive hits from Umiak weapons, even the lowest acceleration Umiak vessels would be able to stay out of mass driver range. You need comparable acceleration to be able to reliably force engagement. You're definitely not going to be able to ram a functioning Umiak vessel with such a ship, they'll just move out of your path. Two Umiak ships could slow to a relative halt, use their superior acceleration to maintain a range that is close for them but still far enough for them to evade your mass driver rounds, and pick you apart at their leisure, coming at you from opposite directions so you can't just point your more-armored bow at them. If all that rock made the ship sufficiently difficult to destroy, they'd probably just take out your drives and go on to more important business elsewhere.Ktrain wrote:Also about those rock ships LegioCI described, wouldn't it take a lot of energy to both get moving and stop?
Aside from that, you can't just coil a railgun to fit more length in a shorter weapon. Helical railguns do exist, but the benefit is reduced peak current, likely at a cost in velocity due to increased inductance...they're something of a hybrid of railguns and coilguns. They are better suited to scaling up in projectile mass, not specific energy. There's just nothing to indicate that humanity is anywhere close to building 0.25c railguns firing projectiles of any mass.
Not sure how the "superconductive veins" are supposed to help. A chunk of superconducting ceramic is going to behave much like a chunk of rock when hit by a particle beam or laser.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
As Ktrain suggested, we could be a good staging area and it's better if we were able to rebuild and supply the Loroi from what we have here than having them bring all of the supplies they need all the way with them.dfacto wrote:I don't think the Loroi will want to help us very much at all because they'll see 6 worlds, of which only 2 are worth anything, very low tech, and insufficient industrial capacity. Most likely they will provide some basic drive tech improvements and then set humanity to mining for war materials. They have no reason to treat us as a serious potential ally because we're just backwood hicks to them.Zakharra wrote:dfacto, that is unrealistic. If the Loroi want us to help them, some tech assistance will have to be offered. Right now, humanity has little to offer aside from bodies and an undamaged and unexploited tech base that can be expanded upon. With billions of people on our worlds, we have the advantage of numbers were we are, but our tech is pathetic. They have to help us upgrade in order for us to be of any use within 5 years.
But humans being humans, we'll need to arm ourselves as best we can, and salvaging Umiak scrap seems like a pretty easy way to get a boost to me.
If they were not going to help us, what good would be be to them? We have goods and materials they do not have access to. It would take only a little effort on the Loroi's part for us to double or triple our combat effectiveness.
I do not know if the Loroi would allow humans to linger and scavange battlefields for ship parts. If we are to be of use to them, then they need to let us have some technology to upgrade our tech base. If we aren't of much use, they would have no reason to let us anywhere near a battlefield, so we wouldn't be able to get tech that way either.
Remember who is running the war. The Loroi. They say who goes were in military matters. If they say don't go there, their allies don't go there.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Yes, but that doesn't mean we'll get competitive engine or weapon technology.Zakharra wrote: As Ktrain suggested, we could be a good staging area and it's better if we were able to rebuild and supply the Loroi from what we have here than having them bring all of the supplies they need all the way with them.
Would be great if humanity was invisible to the Loroi or something. Then we could do whatever we wanted with minimal risk.I do not know if the Loroi would allow humans to linger and scavange battlefields for ship parts.
Remember who is running the war. The Loroi. They say who goes were in military matters. If they say don't go there, their allies don't go there.
But whatever. There are multiple angles of development in outsider in relation to humanity's future, and I chose to extrapolate on the one where the Loroi treat us like the redheaded stepchild. It's much more fun being the scrappy underdogs who have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps than it is being suddenly more awesome than we have any right to be. I get the feeling lots of people want the story to go "Humanity FUCK YEAH", but I prefer "Humanity oh crap please don't kill us"
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Dfacto, furthermore humanity might ally itself with the Umiak and gain actual technology from them. This war could have been started by the Loroi and Umiak are fighting a "war of survival" like the Russians did against the Germans. The Loroi have a history of being brutal conquerors and even though it is implied that the Umiak are less pleasant than the Loroi, so little is actually known about the Umiak that we cannot make a definitive conclusion who the preferable party to ally with is. (Maybe the Loroi are so bad a diplomacy that every Umiak olive branch comes back incinerated and man can negotiate for peace ).
Though, if the Loroi were to utilize human systems as a staging area they might feel inclined to transfer some civilian tech as to better our support role. Loroi are fighters and might prefer to have third parties make and deliver supplies. Better engines for faster fuel transports. But the Loroi might be less inclined to provide technical support if human territory is not strategically defensible (it means the Umiak might learn something they shouldn't), but if the territory is too safe they might not see a reason to arm the natives. I like to think that support from the Union would come from its weaker members who wish to dilute Loroi political power.
PS: Has anyone noticed that Umiak is like a word for an Eskimo canoe?
).Though, if the Loroi were to utilize human systems as a staging area they might feel inclined to transfer some civilian tech as to better our support role. Loroi are fighters and might prefer to have third parties make and deliver supplies. Better engines for faster fuel transports. But the Loroi might be less inclined to provide technical support if human territory is not strategically defensible (it means the Umiak might learn something they shouldn't), but if the territory is too safe they might not see a reason to arm the natives. I like to think that support from the Union would come from its weaker members who wish to dilute Loroi political power.
PS: Has anyone noticed that Umiak is like a word for an Eskimo canoe?
Last edited by Ktrain on Mon May 09, 2011 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Hmm you're right. Though up north we generally call them the Inuit People instead of the Eskimos.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Hm, if I had to choose between bugs and spaceelves, my decision would be clear...Ktrain wrote:Dfacto, furthermore humanity might ally itself with the Umiak and gain actual technology from them. This war could have been started by the Loroi and Umiak are fighting a "war of survival" like the Russians did against the Germans. The Loroi have a history of being brutal conquerors and even though it is implied that the Umiak are less pleasant than the Loroi, so little is actually known about the Umiak that we cannot make a definitive conclusion who the preferable party to ally with.
Also, the Loroi can´t afford anymore to not ally with us. They´re exhausted and their then-former allies would revolt against them. They already know of Alex.
sapere aude.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
sapere aude.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
lol nice! was that planned?Ktrain wrote:Has anyone noticed that Umiak is like a word for an Eskimo canoe?
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
i have seen that picture a few times and as always i am surprised at just how big aSuper Star Destroyer wasTrantor wrote:Found this one recently:
http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/spaceship.jpg
(2k x 2k pixels, 800kB)
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1 ... perium.png
From the emperor's dreams of extra-galactic conquest! I present the Ultra-Super Star Destroyer!
From the emperor's dreams of extra-galactic conquest! I present the Ultra-Super Star Destroyer!
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Grayhome wrote:http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1 ... perium.png
From the emperor's dreams of extra-galactic conquest! I present the Ultra-Super Star Destroyer!
Ok, this is SF. But i always wonder how powerful and resource-rich an economic system must be to allow the construction of such huge vessels.
Even an "only" 2km big Umiak Ultraheavy is way beyond our todays world economy.
sapere aude.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Umiak prefer to charge in and blast in from clsoe range?
Hehe...ironicly, the that's exactly where the human weapons are the best.
Design cheap ships with minal crews that are made to push asteroids in front of them as giant shields. Arm them with the best mass drivers you can.
Charge at the Umiak (or don't. They'll charge at you anyway)
With a mile or solid rock between you and them, and them charging at you, human ships should be abel to close within range. And then...mass driver time baby!
Hehe...ironicly, the that's exactly where the human weapons are the best.
Design cheap ships with minal crews that are made to push asteroids in front of them as giant shields. Arm them with the best mass drivers you can.
Charge at the Umiak (or don't. They'll charge at you anyway)
With a mile or solid rock between you and them, and them charging at you, human ships should be abel to close within range. And then...mass driver time baby!
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
Last edited by uthilian on Thu May 12, 2011 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs
With Umiak's superior engines they can just fly around that rock and strike from sides or from behind, moreover, they can just rocket-spam human vesseles from another side of asteroid.TrashMan wrote:Umiak prefer to charge in and blast in from clsoe range?
Hehe...ironicly, the that's exactly where the human weapons are the best.
Design cheap ships with minal crews that are made to push asteroids in front of them as giant shields. Arm them with the best mass drivers you can.
Charge at the Umiak (or don't. They'll charge at you anyway)
With a mile or solid rock between you and them, and them charging at you, human ships should be abel to close within range. And then...mass driver time baby!