Cultural shock/differences

[glorer]

So taking into account that we need something to do meanwhile Arioch do its thing (update the comic ><, :p), i though we need something to kill time, because the next comic was going to be Alex +1 chatter box (Beryl and many questions ) + 3 pairs of ears on him + one, relative, closed place i got a few doubts.

Comic wise:
How will they react when Alex says he CHOOSE to join the military?

Universe wise:
How will the Loroi, which society is mainly cast based, react to ours in which you can be whenever you want if you put enough effort into it? will there be adventurous Lorois which are willing to take a risky , and possible non-return, travel to terran space in order to work in something they want to?

For these questions i assume that mainly civilian cast Loroi that want to run a military career and cant because of customs (only those worn on a warrior cast or exceptional individuals, if the system catch them, are allowed to) or even some warrior born Loroi that dont want a military career [thought these last ones will be very rare or very likely none], and that the terran government will not to put any obstacle.

How do you think will the freedom that human males have to make or reach different positions or decisions will influence the Loroi ones?

Pd
Sorry for my english, it is not my first language, but im learning

[fredgiblet]

Comic wise:
How will they react when Alex says he CHOOSE to join the military?

I imagine the idea of a voluntary military is common , with the Loroi and Umiak being exceptions rather than the rule. I would guess that his choice will be seen in a positive light, as they will probably assume, unless corrected, that the military is the most prestigious choice. If he specifically explains that the Scout Corps only takes the best and the contact mission only the best of the Scout Corps they might be impressed, or they might think he's just boasting.

How will the Loroi, which society is mainly cast based, react to ours in which you can be whenever you want if you put enough effort into it? will there be adventurous Lorois which are willing to take a risky , and possible non-return, travel to terran space in order to work in something they want to?

There's several related questions, will the government allow it, will the cost be too high, etc. I expect there to be a small but steady stream of Loroi making the trip for a variety of reasons.

For these questions i assume that mainly civilian cast Loroi that want to run a military career and cant because of customs (only those worn on a warrior cast or exceptional individuals, if the system catch them, are allowed to) or even some warrior born Loroi that dont want a military career [thought these last ones will be very rare or very likely none], and that the terran government will not to put any obstacle.

Coming to Earth for a military career will probably result in disappointment. In the unlikely event that we're allowed to have any sort of significant military force the force is likely to be de facto restricted to humans. After all, the Loroi have their own military, why would we want them serving in ours?

How do you think will the freedom that human males have to make or reach different positions or decisions will influence the Loroi ones?

The Loroi males? I don't know, they have a pretty sweet deal it seems. IIRC they're free to follow most career paths in the civilian sector (probably only excepting dangerous professions) I doubt they'll want to fight for the right to go on the Loroi equivalent of crab fishing boats or anything like that just because a human male can do it.

[glorer]

Coming to Earth for a military career will probably result in disappointment. In the unlikely event that we're allowed to have any sort of significant military force the force is likely to be de facto restricted to humans. After all, the Loroi have their own military, why would we want them serving in ours?

Mainly because the civilian population dont even have the choice to do it, even if they want to and maybe even are good at it. And i doubt they will restrict the military only for humans, ok we wont see any hight ranking loroi officer (at least for a few hundred years) but i can see some medium and quite a few low ranking them, i mean the loroi read minds (not ours) and i wont be surprised that the military will have quite a bit of pressure from researchers (not all learning is made under a scalpel or on a glass cage) and the politicians (which will very likely try to show good will to the loroi, and will do first what they know), add to it that the military will consider them an asset, being as they are from a mainly warrior race with tons of experience on the space warfare, and that the military (at least now days) become like idiots when you give a possible new toy for them to play with.

The Loroi males? I don't know, they have a pretty sweet deal it seems. IIRC they're free to follow most career paths in the civilian sector (probably only excepting dangerous professions) I doubt they'll want to fight for the right to go on the Loroi equivalent of crab fishing boats or anything like that just because a human male can do it.

Yes but they are basically told, do you see this place, well you can do whatever you want except going over that fence, i mean, is there for your protection after all, in short a golden cage is a cage, thought i must admit this one have a lot of honey on it :p

I dont expect a wave but maybe some oddball will show on here, i mean for some people freedom is worth getting dirty or have a lower lifestyle than the one you had.

[fredgiblet]

Mainly because the civilian population dont even have the choice to do it, even if they want to and maybe even are good at it. And i doubt they will restrict the military only for humans, ok we wont see any hight ranking loroi officer (at least for a few hundred years) but i can see some medium and quite a few low ranking them, i mean the loroi read minds (not ours) and i wont be surprised that the military will have quite a bit of pressure from researchers (not all learning is made under a scalpel or on a glass cage) and the politicians (which will very likely try to show good will to the loroi, and will do first what they know), add to it that the military will consider them an asset, being as they are from a mainly warrior race with tons of experience on the space warfare, and that the military (at least now days) become like idiots when you give a possible new toy for them to play with.

I don't see how scientists would benefit from having Loroi in the military, can you explain? I also don't see the Loroi government being impressed in any way by us putting Loroi into our military. At best I see then not caring, at worst it would look bad because we're using their cast-offs. If a Loroi did well in the human military then it might even embarrass the Loroi, amusing, but not helpful. The Loroi who emigrate to us won't likely have any training, the ones that wash out of advanced training would likely be re-assigned to lower-level duties rather than dropped to civilian, so the only ones that even made it to the actual military training that we would have would be washouts from Basic.

Yes but they are basically told, do you see this place, well you can do whatever you want except going over that fence, i mean, is there for your protection after all, in short a golden cage is a cage, thought i must admit this one have a lot of honey on it :p

I dont expect a wave but maybe some oddball will show on here, i mean for some people freedom is worth getting dirty or have a lower lifestyle than the one you had.

I don't see a lot of human women demanding the right to be conscripted or work as lumberjacks. There's already a bit of a push for more active involvement of Loroi males (a male will be replacing Tempest's Farseer at some point), but that's obviously without any influence by humans.

I highly doubt that males will be allowed to emigrate, I suppose it's possible that one with pull might decide to force the issue, but I don't see it as likely.

[JQBogus]

I don't know that the new farseer being male is indicative of any push for gender equality in Loroi society. More likely, farseers are rare enough that gender is less important than ability.

Or maybe they're hoping a male farseer might be able to read a male human.

[Voitan]

IIRC, didn't Arioch mention that if Farseers focus down their ability on an individual, it could kill them?

[glorer]

I don't see how scientists would benefit from having Loroi in the military, can you explain?

The mere fact of being able to observe a loroi will give us quite a bit of data, i mean we already do that to animals by recording them on their natural enviroment, add to that a few actors which will probably be added for data gathering by interacting with them and you will reap benefits, you can observe their use on their abilities, range, as well as habits, social structure, culture, etc.

Some times the big picture can only be seen by putting many smaller parts together, and you will be surprised how many data can be obtained by only observation, and we are dealing with an unknown species with unknown abilities.

The humans on outsider should only be aware on some idiot trying to crack a Loroi skull open, this action is probably bound to be bloody XD

I also don't see the Loroi government being impressed in any way by us putting Loroi into our military. At best I see then not caring, at worst it would look bad because we're using their cast-offs. If a Loroi did well in the human military then it might even embarrass the Loroi, amusing, but not helpful. The Loroi who emigrate to us won't likely have any training, the ones that wash out of advanced training would likely be re-assigned to lower-level duties rather than dropped to civilian, so the only ones that even made it to the actual military training that we would have would be washouts from Basic.

True the loroi who will come to join the terran military will be either misfits or discontents, but that they dont fit on the cogs of the loroi military doesnt mean they cannot fit on ours, among other thing terrans have no "mind" training of any kind (as far as insider is concerned there are no espers), they may even make very good officers, this is something you dont know until you try it, it have a few setbacks, mainly

* If a terran vessel/fleet do something neat/good/amazing and have a loroi officer on board, they will probably think that is because there was one of them, which will take merit from the terran crew/officers accomplishments.
* if the loroi on the terran army do it good, its bound to tick the more conservative members of loroi society, which i assume hold quite a bit of power.

I don't see a lot of human women demanding the right to be conscripted or work as lumberjacks. There's already a bit of a push for more active involvement of Loroi males (a male will be replacing Tempest's Farseer at some point), but that's obviously without any influence by humans.

I highly doubt that males will be allowed to emigrate, I suppose it's possible that one with pull might decide to force the issue, but I don't see it as likely.

I imagine that if a male is going to come here he will not ask! He will probably just run away and try to smuggle himself

I don't know that the new farseer being male is indicative of any push for gender equality in Loroi society. More likely, farseers are rare enough that gender is less important than ability.

Or maybe they're hoping a male farseer might be able to read a male human.

i think the same, more than equality is something like using all available resources, lets remember that the Lorio and Umiak empires are both holding by the seams, barely.

[Victor_D]

I think the Human society as a whole will come as a bit of a shock, chiefly because we're so similar physiologically, though probably not as big as some may think (after all, the Loroi have been in contact with other species for centuries, they are used to the idea that other races have different ideas about how to organize a society).

Specifically, just as we find the idea of a military composed entirely of females strange, so will they look in disbelief at the highly masculine composition of our armed forces. Even stranger will be the notion that we actually allow both sexes to serve, and that military service is voluntary and often used by people of lower classes to advance on the social ladder.

The biggest perceived difference will be for them to see how differently and far more richly we use speech.

[glorer]

Im also think about the fact that we are quite used to read between lines, and differ info from other things like behavior, body language, etc for a society that can basically interact with telepathy (and probably rely heavily on it) with all other species, that we can gather a lot of information from an individual by doing that will probably make them question themselves if Alex was lying when he said we dont have telepathy.

Pd
If Alex do that, im sure their reactions are going to be quite amusing to see XD

[Jericho]

Im also think about the fact that we are quite used to read between lines, and differ info from other things like behavior, body language, etc for a society that can basically interact with telepathy (and probably rely heavily on it) with all other species, that we can gather a lot of information from an individual by doing that will probably make them question themselves if Alex was lying when he said we dont have telepathy.

Pd
If Alex do that, im sure their reactions are going to be quite amusing to see XD

Not so certain about that. The loroi deal with species that are non telepathic regularly so species gaining insight without telepathy is not a strange concept to them, but it would probably be impressive.

[fredgiblet]

The mere fact of being able to observe a loroi will give us quite a bit of data, i mean we already do that to animals by recording them on their natural enviroment, add to that a few actors which will probably be added for data gathering by interacting with them and you will reap benefits, you can observe their use on their abilities, range, as well as habits, social structure, culture, etc.

Some times the big picture can only be seen by putting many smaller parts together, and you will be surprised how many data can be obtained by only observation, and we are dealing with an unknown species with unknown abilities.

How does any of that require them being in the military though?

True the loroi who will come to join the terran military will be either misfits or discontents, but that they dont fit on the cogs of the loroi military doesnt mean they cannot fit on ours, among other thing terrans have no "mind" training of any kind (as far as insider is concerned there are no espers), they may even make very good officers, this is something you dont know until you try it, it have a few setbacks, mainly

I don't expect many members of the Loroi military will be jumping ship to join ours. A few sure (Alex's harem perhaps), but most will likely be civilians. If you're a misfit in the military in one place chances are good you'll be a misfit somewhere else, plus if we're allowed to have a military it will certainly be restricted to second-rate. I expect most Loroi who come to live here will be looking for more freedom to follow their own path, not the path they were already on. Ultimately I think it's academic anyway, no one else has been allowed a military, I don't see why we would be.

I imagine that if a male is going to come here he will not ask! He will probably just run away and try to smuggle himself

I highly doubt that will work. I see very little chance of Loroi ships being willing to carry a male that doesn't have permission from his handlers, same with most human ships, remember that they do keep tabs on their males. I suppose they could try to forge the authorization, but I don't see a high chance of success for a runaway attempt.

[glorer]

How does any of that require them being in the military though?

True, it is not necessary, the ones that will probably come first (aside from diplomatic/s convoy/s, obviously) are going to be either merchants (money moves the world around, or in this case the ships ), entertainers, scholars and curious people that can afford to come and see the pink Loroi looking aliens .

But taking into account the length of the conflict plus the amount of pressure and deaths the Loroi society, both military and civilian, has gone trough is not a surprise that quite a numbers of civilians will want to fight or do something too, yet they are forbidden by their laws (they are either a warrior from birth or piked up as kids) and those that want a military/warrior job, but cant because they are civilians (even the farseers are still civilians, without any authority, even thought they risk theirs lives too on the battlefield and are a key element on the defenses of the Loroi), add to it the fact that Greywind permanent martial law and the genocide, is bound to make a lot of the Loroi and other members of the union quite displeased with the actual government, and that a military force that exist to protect a civilian lifestyle and is not a lifestyle on itself is bound to call a lot of attention on curious people or maybe even the Loroi society as a whole.

In sort i can see a few of those coming into the military, is not like they need to be there, but the military like to poke. learn, pick up curios things, have a looot of resources, even more since the Orgus told humans about the war and all of that, and is usually a lot less scrupulous about doing those kind of things.

I don't expect many members of the Loroi military will be jumping ship to join ours. A few sure (Alex's harem perhaps), but most will likely be civilians. If you're a misfit in the military in one place chances are good you'll be a misfit somewhere else, plus if we're allowed to have a military it will certainly be restricted to second-rate. I expect most Loroi who come to live here will be looking for more freedom to follow their own path, not the path they were already on. Ultimately I think it's academic anyway, no one else has been allowed a military, I don't see why we would be.

I disagree, there are different officers/soldiers/etc, that where given desk work or put into a post to rot away because they where an political inconvenience (Stillstorm, was one such inconveniences if im not mistaken), i can see a handful joining the human military as a chance to start anew in a place that, very likely and if the Terran government play it smart, give a shit about background as far as they are good doing their jobs, add to it the fact that the Terran systems are going to become the frontlines unless something unexpected happens that halt or pause the war (very doubtful).

I highly doubt that will work. I see very little chance of Loroi ships being willing to carry a male that doesn't have permission from his handlers, same with most human ships, remember that they do keep tabs on their males. I suppose they could try to forge the authorization, but I don't see a high chance of success for a runaway attempt.

True, who knows maybe one or two of them manage, even if only for the adventure, i mean the moment the Loroi know there are males on the Terran systems they are bound to come quickly to pick him/them back

[Sprawl63]

I don't see any Loroi joining Terran military for any reason other than appointed advisers. Seeing as how war is seen as the better half of politics to them, their institutions are probably light years ahead of ours. If anything, Terrans would join the Loroi Union to learn some of their tricks.

[glorer]

I don't see any Loroi joining Terran military for any reason other than appointed advisers. Seeing as how war is seen as the better half of politics to them, their institutions are probably light years ahead of ours. If anything, Terrans would join the Loroi Union to learn some of their tricks.

The Loroi have a kind of military government and society (for not saying sort of dictatorial in some matters) so in that case i cannot see us learning anything aside from their internal politics (they can probe useful on dealing with them tough), but the only thing we maybe be really interested is space warfare and their experience on managing an extensive territory.

I can picture Loroi discontent with the way their government run things actually joining us (military and civilian wise), taking into account we are so similar and all

[JQBogus]

... but the only thing we maybe be really interested is space warfare and their experience on managing an extensive territory.

Unfortunately, the Loroi rely heavily on telepathy in warfare, and probably also do so in their management of interstellar government. Instantaneous communication makes the whole thing run quite differently than all communications taking weeks or more. So not really a lot to learn there for us humans.

[fredgiblet]

But taking into account the length of the conflict plus the amount of pressure and deaths the Loroi society, both military and civilian, has gone trough is not a surprise that quite a numbers of civilians will want to fight or do something too, yet they are forbidden by their laws (they are either a warrior from birth or piked up as kids) and those that want a military/warrior job, but cant because they are civilians (even the farseers are still civilians, without any authority, even thought they risk theirs lives too on the battlefield and are a key element on the defenses of the Loroi)

Rosie the Riveter. The civilians are part of the war effort too, and they are probably reminded of it constantly. They would be more valuable putting their energies towards working then coming here.

I disagree, there are different officers/soldiers/etc, that where given desk work or put into a post to rot away because they where an political inconvenience (Stillstorm, was one such inconveniences if im not mistaken), i can see a handful joining the human military as a chance to start anew in a place that, very likely and if the Terran government play it smart, give a shit about background as far as they are good doing their jobs, add to it the fact that the Terran systems are going to become the frontlines unless something unexpected happens that halt or pause the war (very doubtful).

We will be on the frontline, but our military won't be doing the fighting (or at least will be doing very little of it). The Mjolnir cannon is powerful, but it's range is limited and it rate of fire is low plus we'll only have as many of them as we have America-class cruisers. Our lasers are comparable in power to Loroi weapons, but those are the weakest weapons the Loroi have. A single Umiak cruiser would wipe out our entire fleet without breaking a sweat, smaller ships might be killable if the Umiak commander isn't careful, but even then it would be tough.

Our cruisers may be deployed alongside the Loroi defenders of our region, but they'll be second-line ships and they won't stay relevant for long. Joining us to get a front-line combat position would be foolish.

[fredgiblet]

I can picture Loroi discontent with the way their government run things actually joining us (military and civilian wise), taking into account we are so similar and all

Probably, but it will likely be a long time before the average civilian will have any real chance of getting here. Between the probably difficulty of emigration during the war and the likely lack of non-military transit for the next couple years as well as the difficulty of making the transition to a largely non-Trade speaking population I don't expect a large number of Loroi until the war is winding down.

Unfortunately, the Loroi rely heavily on telepathy in warfare, and probably also do so in their management of interstellar government. Instantaneous communication makes the whole thing run quite differently than all communications taking weeks or more. So not really a lot to learn there for us humans.

There's no interstellar telepathy. I remember Arioch stating that it would likely be possible, but would have the side effect of being extremely dangerous to the recipients of the message (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA)

[JQBogus]

There's no interstellar telepathy. I remember Arioch stating that it would likely be possible, but would have the side effect of being extremely dangerous to the recipients of the message (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA)

Hm... I figured there was from the Loroi Timeline in the extras :

"803 CE Farseers on Deinar make telepathic contact with their counterparts on Perrein."
"850 CE Jump drive developed; scouts reach Perrein."

Contact 47 years before jump drive, via telepathy. Maybe they were just willing to take the big risk.

Still, if the resolution farseers can achieve is fine enough, it alone could be used for more or less instantaneous interstellar communication. Just post a shuttle in each system crewed by a Lotai capable pilot, have them fly far enough out to be discernible as a separate 'blip' by farseers in other systems, and have her wink on and off in the Loroi equivalent of Morse Code.

[captainsmirk]

Given enough power and instrumentality, it is possible to mechanically amplify an ordinary Loroi individual's telepathic transmission so that it may be readable at interstellar distances, but this is not usually done. Keep in mind that during the pre-starflight Loroi period of internecine warfare, amplified telepathic transmissions were used by the Loroi for the purpose of attacking the minds of their fellow Loroi, and the telepathic amplifiers worn by Mizol and Teidar are for the purpose of attack, not communication. If you imagine trying to amplify an audio signal generated from Chicago so that it could be heard in New York, and consider what that might do to the hearing of people in the surrounding areas, you get an idea of why this is potentially dangerous to unintended recipients. A telepathic signal can be focused in terms of "frequency" to attempt to limit the contact to an individual Loroi, but there are limits to how effective this focusing can be. Using telepathy at interstellar FTL communication is possible, but limited to unusual situations in which the target is a known amplified Farseer who can detect a transmisson at a specific "frequency" and low enough power that it will not potentially lobotomize nearby ordinary Loroi, or where transmitter and receiver are in a "safe" location free of nearby vulnerable listeners, or else in such a desperate situation that the sender is willing to accept such a risk to telepathic bystanders. Warning an outpost of an incoming Umiak strike may not be worthwhile if you destroy the minds of the majority of the people you are trying to warn.

This quote lists the dangers and limitations of long-range telepathy using Farseers, you would need a Farseer on each of those relay ships your talking about and there simply aren't enough of them available, not when they are much to valuable for their other abilities.

Take a look at fredgiblet's collections of stuff from the old forums in the Insider, they include a lot of info, I found this one just by searching for "Farseer".


Nick

[JQBogus]

This quote lists the dangers and limitations of long-range telepathy using Farseers, you would need a Farseer on each of those relay ships your talking about and there simply aren't enough of them available, not when they are much to valuable for their other abilities.

Take a look at fredgiblet's collections of stuff from the old forums in the Insider, they include a lot of info, I found this one just by searching for "Farseer".


Nick

No farseer is needed on the relay ships. Just a Loroi capable of varying their 'signal strength' such that the difference is detectable by a Farseer at interstellar distances. This doesn't have to be by the practice of Lotai. It could just be a matter of putting on and taking off an amplifier. Each system in the com net would have to have a farseer for receiving, and a Lotai/ampllifier Loroi for transmitting. Some systems might just have transmitters if there are fewer farseers than systems in Loroi space.

Example :
A farseer can 'see' out to a distance of 25 light years. Within that range, they can detect location to within 1 AU, and intensity down to a single intelligent life form. Multiple life forms within 1 AU of each other just appear to be a higher intensity contact.
SO... two systems 25 light years apart want to talk to each other without the delay of sending ships back and forth on a 4-5 jump trip, but also without the dangers of direct mind to mind interstellar contact. Each has a farseer on the main planet of the system, and each sends a pilot with an amplifier (or who is Lotai capable) out to a prearranged spot in either system, at least 2 AU from any other intelligent beings in their respective systems. The farseers can now sense a faint contact at the prearranged spot in the other system. To communicate, the system governor simply sends a lightspeed signal to the pilot 2 AU out (16 minutes delay) which is either already in code, or which the pilot then renders into code. The pilot, then puts on and takes off her amplifier, or engages and disengages Lotai in short and long bursts, according to the code. The Farseer in the other system the notices the variation in the faint signal, takes down the message coded into the variation in signal strength, renders it back into normal speech and passes it on to the governor of her system. Replies work the same way, just going the other direction. Governor A to Pilot A to Farseer B to Governor B to Pilot B to Farseer A, and back to Governor A. A complete answer and reply loop has only 32 minutes of delay. Much faster than sending a courrier round trip, even at 40G acceleration.

This all may not even work, depending on the specifics of Farsensing, and depending on if what farsensing senses varies by use of Lotai/Amplifiers.